From Fax Machines to Quantum: Canada’s Sami Khoury Reflects on Three Decades in Cyber

Show Notes

Cybersecurity now reaches far beyond government networks and traditional IT systems. In this episode, Sami Khoury explains how the threat environment increasingly touches critical infrastructure, operational technology, undersea cables, and space—and why that shift is pushing governments to work more closely with private industry and trusted international partners.

Drawing on more than three decades in Canadian government, Khoury offers a clear view of how Canada has built out its cyber posture, how the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security fits into that mission, and where the threat is evolving fastest. He also reflects on the growing overlap between nation-state activity, cybercrime, and hacktivism; the promise and risk of AI; the long transition toward post-quantum security; and the enduring pull of public service in a field where the stakes keep rising.

Main Topics Covered

• Canada’s cyber strategy
• Critical infrastructure security
• OT, undersea cables, and space
• AI and post-quantum risk
• Public-private and international partnership

Key Quotes:

 “When cyber came about or when we started paying attention to cyber, it was predominantly an IT issue. But unfortunately, these days it’s not just an IT issue and we have to pay attention to OT.” — Sami Khoury

“We know that cyber, and it might be cliche, cyber knows no border.” — Sami Khoury

 “We welcome people from different educational background because it’s the analytical thinking capacity that we’re looking for, not critical thinking skills. It’s not necessarily that you’re the best coder or that you are the best hardware architect. We want people with the critical thinking skills.” — Sami Khoury

“The day there’s a cryptographically relevant quantum computer that can break today’s encryption will not, I presume, will not come with a press release.” — Sami Khoury

“It’s no longer government on government, it’s government on private sector, it’s mercenaries on private sector, it’s mercenaries on government or hacktivist on government. So it’s completely asymmetric and it takes a whole team to basically make a difference.” — Sami Khoury

Relevant Links and Resources

Canadian Centre for Cyber Security 

Canada’s national cyber threat assessment

Canada’s AI strategy

Canada’s Post-quantum encryption bulletin

Guest Bio: Sami Khoury is the Government of Canada Senior Official for Cyber Security and the former head of the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security. He has spent over 30 years in the Canadian government, primarily within the Communications Security Establishment (CSE), Canada’s signals intelligence and cryptologic agency. A veteran of the “Five Eyes” intelligence community, Khoury has been instrumental in shaping Canada’s national cyber strategy and fostering deep operational ties with international partners.

Transcript

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Sami Khoury [00:00:00]: When cyber came about or when we started paying attention to cyber, it was predominantly an IT issue. But unfortunately, these days it’s not just an IT issue, and we have to pay attention to OT.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:00:14]: Welcome to Cyber Focus from the McCrary Institute, where we explore the people and ideas shaping and defending our digital world. I’m your host, Frank Cilluffo, and this week I have the privilege to sit down with a long friend, Sami Khoury, who’s had 30 plus years in the Canadian government, from the national security space all the way down to civilian critical infrastructure and cyber. He will soon be retiring from government. So thrilled to have him here to be able to not only give a picture of what Canada is facing and how they’re addressing some of these challenges, but also reflect a little bit on his distinguished service over many of these years. We’re filming today from San Francisco, so we’re off site. And thank you to Asana for lending their beautiful studio. Sami, thank you so much for joining us today.

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Sami Khoury [00:01:03]: Happy to be with you, Frank. Great opportunity.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:01:05]: So I’ve had the privilege of working with you for a number of years, but I thought for some of our viewers, it would be good to get a sense of how Canada is addressing some of these issues. Where you see the threat, how you rack and stack that, and then a little bit about how you’re structured.

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Sami Khoury [00:01:23]: Happy to give you that perspective. I mean, from a Canadian landscape, you know, we have a Canadian Center for Cybersecurity, the government-

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Frank Cilluffo [00:01:32]: Which you led.

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Sami Khoury [00:01:33]: Which I led for a few years, from up until two years ago, roughly. It was part of an ambition of government in its first national cybersecurity strategy, to say CSE knows a lot about cyber, and it’s important that that knowledge now goes beyond government. So prior to 2018, we were very much focused on preventing or defending Canadian government infrastructure. And part of the national cyber security strategy was to say, let’s set up a center and let’s make it support the broader Canadian landscape. So the center has been up and running since 2018. Our Prime Directive continues to be to defend the Canadian government, but also to share our knowledge, to share our competence, to share our expertise with the rest of critical infrastructure, small medium businesses, public sector, across the country.

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Sami Khoury [00:02:25]: So that’s, and it has been a very interesting journey with growth along the way, but also growth in the challenges that we are facing.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:02:33]: Yeah, the adversary has a vote in all of this. And for our viewers, CSE is the signals intelligence entity, like the US National Security Agency.

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Sami Khoury [00:02:39]: Yeah, it’s Canada’s cryptologic agency, so a partner of NSA for almost 80 years. We’re celebrating 80 years this year. And the cyber center was stood up as part of CSE. So our old, what used to be called IT security has morphed into cybersecurity. In 2018, overnight, effectively, the group changed name and branding and now is known as the Canadian Center for Cybersecurity.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:03:08]: And if you look at the threat landscape, nation states, criminal organizations, insider threat, same sorts of challenges, but I’d be curious if, how you would rack and stack that as much as you can.

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Sami Khoury [00:03:22]: Absolutely. So part of the role of the cyber center is to put out a national cyber threat assessment, and it’s a document that is public but is well informed from all sorts of sources. So could be unclassified, but could be classified knowledge that we have that we also declassify or at least share in that document. And that document has been published every two years. So 2018, 2020, 2022 and 2024. So I suspect sometime this year will issue a new one, or the cyber center will issue a new one. There is an evolution of the threat, but there’s a few constant, I would say categories.

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Sami Khoury [00:04:01]: State sponsored activity is one of the constants, and so is cyber criminality that is manifested itself in an evolution of the ransomware tactics over the year, going from simply, going from locking a system up and asking for ransom to now effectively stealing your data and then double extortion, triple extortion, and a much wider net, unfortunately, of victims in that space. And in the middle, the gray zone around hacktivist and has also grown. So now we have to look at all three. Insider threat is a threat we’re aware of, but it tends to be more for the RCMP, the federal police, and sometimes CSIS to pursue that. So if there’s a cyber dimension to it, we will get involved, but if it’s purely human driven, it will defer to those two partner agencies.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:05:04]: And with the advent of new technology, we’re here in San Francisco, RSA, and all you can hear is AI, Quantum, agentic AI. But the truth is, tools that used to be in the hands of maybe Moscow, Beijing, Pyongyang, Tehran, are now in the hands of criminal enterprises. And it’s becoming, one thing I will note, and you disprove me if you think, if you disagree, but attribution has improved exponentially from when we were starting in this business to know with the certainty we have today, with corroborated means, to be able to get to that point, it’s improved dramatically. Yet you have proxies and nations are hiding behind criminal enterprises to do their bidding. Right?

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Sami Khoury [00:05:51]: Yeah, it’s get, the lines out there are getting blurred. It’s true that we are refining our knowledge of certain vectors, so certain types of state sponsored activities. But at the same time, because the line is getting blurred, often the behind the scene connection between a hacktivist group, are they state supported, are they working on their own, state sponsors? And also the criminality. So there’s the tool also that seems to seep through. Some state sponsored tool are now in the hands of cybercriminals, the techniques. So all of that adds a bit of the complexity of the threat landscape. The first priority in an incident is to mitigate the incident, is to support the victims and get them up to back on their feet. But also trying to understand who’s behind it.

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Sami Khoury [00:06:45]: It’s not always obvious who is behind it and it does pull considerable resources to try to do attribution.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:06:54]: Awesome. Awesome. And when we sort of look at the landscape, we were talking briefly, when we think of cyber, it is its own domain, but it transcends air, land, sea, space and any thoughts on, and I want to get to how Canada is structured and organized to address these issues and the significance of the bilat. But we have seen some new vectors in terms of space in particular and undersea. Anything you’d like to share?

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Sami Khoury [00:07:22]: Yeah, we have. I mean when cyber came about or when we started paying attention to cyber, it was predominantly an IT issue. But unfortunately these days it’s not just an IT issue, and we have to pay attention to OT. We have to pay attention to-

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Frank Cilluffo [00:07:39]: Extra points for that. We love OT.

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Sami Khoury [00:07:41]: Yes, we have to. We have to. I mean the connectivity, it’s not always that an OT network is segmented from an IT network and those two networks talk to each other and often that becomes a single point of vulnerability. So we need to pay attention more to OT. We are doing that, but at the same time I think we need to pick up the pace on paying more attention to OT. But also other means like space is becoming another domain.

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Sami Khoury [00:08:12]: I would say undersea cable is another domain we need to worry about.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:08:16]: Vast majority of Internet traffic is undersea.

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Sami Khoury [00:08:19]: Yeah. And when there is a cut there, it does affect. Now there’s some smartness in the routing, but at the same time it’s not easy to just dive down and reconnect the cables.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:08:28]: Absolutely.

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Sami Khoury [00:08:29]: So we have a capacity issue there. But those are two domains I would say along with OT that we need to do, we need to up, up our pace in working more in partnership with the people who own some of these infrastructure to make sure that they are secure.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:08:48]: So that’s a perfect transition into how you are organized and as to how you’re trying to not only get your own house in order in Ottawa and the government and all the various agencies, but to work with your partners in the critical infrastructure space.

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Sami Khoury [00:09:05]: Yeah. So in setting up the cyber center, there was a recognition that we needed to be close to the intelligence to be better informed about the threat. So that’s why the cyber center is part of CSE, which also has a cryptologic mission of foreign intelligence. So that informs how we defend ourselves in government against some of the most sophisticated threats that are out there, but also adds credibility to the voice that when we issue an alert to the private sector says, okay, those people know what they’re talking about or are well informed.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:09:44]: It’s corroborated.

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Sami Khoury [00:09:45]: It’s corroborated. But most of critical infrastructure in Canada is owned by the private sector. So we have to work with them. If we care about Canadians, if we care about supporting them in times of needs of outages and things like that, we have to work with critical infrastructure. So it behooves us to share with them as much as we can and reach out to them and tell them alert. So partnership with the critical infrastructure sector is one of the priority.

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Sami Khoury [00:10:14]: But we know that cyber, and it might be cliche, cyber knows no border. So there’s a very long history of partnership with NSA, but also, and the cyber Directorate at NSA, but also in the establishment of CISA. You know, we are, we are of the same age, so we’re about 8 year old, both of us.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:10:36]: And we face the same challenges.

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Sami Khoury [00:10:37]: And we face the same challenges. So it’s been a great partnership with CISA. Also to exchange alert to co-badged alert, now we issue joint cybersecurity advisories with the crests of not just Canada and the U.S. but international partners to demonstrate that we’re all aligned. And also, frankly, when we add our voice to theirs or they add their voice to ours, it amplifies the message a lot more. So these partnerships are super important and I hope that they continue.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:11:11]: And, you know, we’ve seen massive evolution. Initially it would be one stamp, one seal. Now you are starting to see significant seals from multiple countries, which I think is important. And I look back to power outages we’ve had in the United States, and it was Canadian engineers often. So even there, the borders don’t really match up. Right?

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Sami Khoury [00:11:38]: Absolutely. And those co-badged documents are not just, I would call them the scary documents about alerts, but also we’ve issued-

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Frank Cilluffo [00:11:47]: But they are wake up calls.

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Sami Khoury [00:11:48]: They’re wake up calls, yes. But we also issued advisories on how to build a good AI system. So things that are a bit more preemptive in nature. How do you configure something? So in a sense we all agree on how to do the good, but also how to deal with the bad.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:12:08]: So let’s get to, you’ve had a distinguished career, and I can say that personally because I’ve benefited from your wisdom. But I also know you’ve done so much. Looking at how the world has evolved, take us back to day one or day zero to where we are today, because I do want to pull the thread on how AI is changing things and the like. But why don’t we get back to first day in the office and as much as you can say.

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Sami Khoury [00:12:37]: Oh yeah, first day in the office, 1992, you got your badge, you show up, you go through the turnstiles and the building and everything, and then challenge number one at the time was figure out this thing called a fax machine and a fax signal. That was-

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Frank Cilluffo [00:12:55]: Which was a valuable collection tool for a while.

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Sami Khoury [00:12:58]: Which was, but, but in a sense that was the modern technology of the day that was being used extensively. So yes, we had phone calls and yes we had RF, but at the same time the digital age was moving at that point in sort of a fax machine. You move forward 34 years, and now we’re worried about quantum and we’re worried about AI, and that arc I think accelerates at tremendous pace. We’re not stranger to AI. We used to call it neural networks. We used to call it machine learning.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:13:33]: Exactly. Some old wine in new bottles. But there is some newness to it too, right?

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Sami Khoury [00:13:38]: Absolutely.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:13:38]: Especially when it starts thinking and scale and speed. So, and you brought up quantum. Anything in particular from a post-quantum computing or post-quantum encryption perspective we ought to be thinking about?

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Sami Khoury [00:13:51]: It’s a worry in the sense that we have, the cyber center has issued the first bulletin to get government to pay attention to that transition. So we acknowledge that a transition has to happen, and there’s some dates that are outlined in that bulletin, 2031, 2035. So, but that is not an in place transition. So companies, and when I speak publicly, organizations have to realize that this is not a software update. And in some cases there is major infrastructure impact, and in some cases there is major financial impact to, to replace some of those old technology. So don’t rush into it, but you better start thinking about it because there will be a day when it might be too late or you might have missed that normal or that orderly transition to PQC.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:14:47]: And I do worry from an encryption standpoint, so putting on your day hat that could change the world, right? If you could basically keep all your secrets secret and crack everyone else’s, that’s a bad day, isn’t it?

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Sami Khoury [00:15:02]: Yeah, it’s a bad day. It’s a bad day that will not come with a press release. Whomever ends up building a quantum computer, my instincts tell me, is not going to issue a press release saying, I have a quantum computer. I can read everybody else’s secret. You know, whoever has one, they will try to exploit it to its maximum value.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:15:26]: They put out a press release, they’re not really there. Right? That’s the signal.

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Sami Khoury [00:15:30]: That’s the signal that, and we have to qualify. It has to be a cryptographically relevant quantum computer. There are quantum computers out there used for medical research and used for, I would say, dabbling into that space. But the day there’s a cryptographically relevant quantum computer that can break today’s encryption will not, I presume, will not come with a press release.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:15:53]: And we talk a lot about AI, and I oversimplify it. I say, does it defend, does it benefit the defender, the attacker? The truth is both. But is the Canadian government starting to implement AI in its own security?

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Sami Khoury [00:16:07]: Yes. The cyber center has been using-

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Frank Cilluffo [00:16:10]: For a long time.

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Sami Khoury [00:16:11]: That technology for a long time under different names.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:16:13]: Data mining, machine learning.

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Sami Khoury [00:16:16]: But the government did issue an AI strategy for Canada and is about to issue, and maybe it happened already this week, an AI strategy for the government. So two sides of one coin. So recognizing that AI is meant to also bring some productivity gains to it, but also we worry within the cybersecurity community, worry about the security of those systems and that people shouldn’t rush to put out an AI system or, sorry, enable their services with AI without due consideration of the security risk that comes with that. So, so there’s lots of advice and guidance that has been-

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Frank Cilluffo [00:16:59]: And the security of the AI itself.

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Sami Khoury [00:17:01]: Absolutely, yes. Because otherwise, you know, you could, yes, have some productivity gains, but that productivity gain is offset by all sorts of security vulnerabilities.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:17:11]: Let’s talk a little workforce. Because, yes, technology changes the world, but as much as technology changes, human nature remains consistent. Right? And I am convinced that it’s going to be the good women and men who are, who are fighting the good fight are going to keep us, to keep us ahead of this challenge. What advice would you give someone who’s getting into this field right now from a workforce standpoint? So you see some incredibly bright people come into the workforce, but it’s not just the traditional pathways to get into cyber. Any thoughts there? If you’re doing it again now.

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Sami Khoury [00:17:54]: We welcome people from different, you know, educational background because it’s the analytical thinking capacity that we’re looking for, critical thinking skills. It’s not necessarily that you’re the best coder or that you are the best hardware architect. We want people with the critical thinking skills. If we’re pulling the thread on a threat actor, we want people to think sometimes like the threat actor.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:18:20]: There’s someone behind the clickety clack of the keyboard.

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Sami Khoury [00:18:21]: Yes, and how is that human behaving behind the keyboard, and maybe detect subtleties in patterns or subtleties in coding that would tip the hand of the defender. So the critical thinking is the most important skill set, but also the open mind to embrace technology and, and also the open mind to recognize that there is value in partnership with the private sector. Government resources are scarce and the partnership is super important that, let’s not reinvent the wheel. There’s amazing innovation and opportunities that we’ve seen at RSA, Canadian companies, US companies and international companies. And sometimes, why don’t we just partner with them and offset the, the workload on our teams to do the things that they are really hired for, which is that enrichment layer at the top of the stack and work with the private sector to, to complement some of the, maybe the basic infrastructure or basic capabilities that we have.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:19:26]: Very well said. And I’m a big proponent of, the only way you really understand someone’s problems is to walk in their shoes. Right? So more going back and forth. It used to be seen as, oh, that’s a bad thing. I think that’s yesterday’s thinking. But I don’t want to put words in your mouth. What are your thoughts on that?

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Sami Khoury [00:19:45]: It’s true that maybe 20 years ago, 15 years ago, 10 years ago, when a colleague would tell me, I’m leaving for the private sector, I would say, you’re dead to us.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:19:54]: Exactly.

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Sami Khoury [00:19:57]: Why are you leaving this amazing opportunity, this amazing career at CSE to go to, but, but a recognition that that thinking has evolved and we could use that partnership, we could use that friendship with the private sector.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:20:10]: And sometimes innovation. Right?

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Sami Khoury [00:20:12]: To build new bridges.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:20:13]: Right.

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Sami Khoury [00:20:13]: And to understand what’s going on. So, so in a way, today, walking that fine line around conflict of interest to make sure that it Ii clear. But, but at the same time, you know, go out, explore the other side. And frankly, I often tell them I would welcome you back if it didn’t work out. But I wish you success on the other side.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:20:35]: Either way.

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Sami Khoury [00:20:36]: Either way. And I know that now I have a friend working for fill in the blank, the name of the company.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:20:42]: What about one call to action for public service though? You’ve spent your career and the rewards are many, not always in the same financial environment as some of these corporate, but the reward to contribute and make a difference is it’s still there, right?

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Sami Khoury [00:21:01]: Absolutely. I mean, I often joke by saying, I joined for the intrigue, but I stayed for the mission.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:21:06]: There you go.

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Sami Khoury [00:21:08]: Like, what is this organization called CSE? There’s nothing about it in the media in 1991, 92. So that intrigue drew me to the to the career, or at least drew me to saying I’ll accept your job offer, not knowing absolutely what I was going to work on. But then the mission gets you. And the mission is what kept me going both on the intelligence side for over two decades and then the mission on the cybersecurity side for the last almost 10 years. There is something about the mission in our field of work that is just addictive and contributions that will go maybe unsung for many, many years. But we are not just at CSE, but collectively with our close partners and the five eyes, but with also our international partner, we are making a difference. And if your dedication is to the mission is to make the world a better place, then absolutely join that group of dedicated men and women to make the world a safer place.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:22:22]: Samy, that’s awesome. And before we close, any questions I didn’t ask that I should have.

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Sami Khoury [00:22:30]: No, I mean, the threat, from my perspective, will be sadly gainfully employed for some time. The threat is getting more and more challenging. So we need to keep, not just keep pace, but try to get ahead of it. And that getting ahead of it has to imply partnerships with our traditional partner CISA, NSA, and our international partners, but also, but also the private sector and recognizing that the lines are blurred out there and citizens in our countries are impacted by those, by those cyber threat.

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Sami Khoury [00:23:08]: It’s no longer government on government, it’s government on private sector, it’s mercenaries on private sector, it’s mercenaries on government or hacktivist on government. So it’s completely asymmetric and it takes a whole team to basically make a difference. But you’ve asked some very good questions, Frank.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:23:30]: Thank you for quarterbacking these issues for so long. I like to say, it’s a little trite, but the best way to predict the future is to shape it.

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Sami Khoury [00:23:37]: That’s right.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:23:38]: Thank goodness people like you have dedicated so much of their blood, sweat and tears to public service to make North America safer, to make Canada safer. But we benefit from that and I hope the same is likewise. And thank you for spending time with us today. And you’re not done yet. We’re going to keep you in this field. Now you get to speak some more. So thank you, Sami.

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Sami Khoury [00:24:02]: Thanks a lot, Frank, for this opportunity to spend that time with you and your listener, your audience, and share this Canadian perspective.

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Frank Cilluffo [00:24:10]: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Cyber Focus. If you liked what you heard, please consider subscribing. Your ratings and reviews help us reach more listeners. Drop us a line if you have any ideas in terms of topics, themes or individuals you’d like for us to host. Until next time, stay safe, stay informed and stay curious.