Power, Security, and the Infrastructure of Tomorrow with Power Podcast Host Aaron Larson

Show Notes

In this special crossover edition of Cyber Focus and the Power Podcast, host Frank Cilluffo sits down with Aaron Larson to explore the evolving intersection of energy innovation and cybersecurity. From breakthroughs in small modular reactors and geothermal technologies to the power demands of AI and electric vehicles, they examine how the U.S. grid is being reshaped by both opportunity and threat. Larson draws on his background in nuclear power and conversations with top industry leaders to highlight the promise of emerging energy sources—and the urgent need to bake in security from the start. Together, they underscore the stakes of keeping U.S. energy infrastructure resilient in the face of growing cyber threats and global competition.

Main Topics Covered:

• The transformation of the U.S. power grid from centralized plants to distributed energy resources

• The impact of AI, data centers, and EVs on electricity demand

• Innovations in nuclear energy, including SMRs, fusion, and microreactors

• State-level leadership in clean energy development and workforce transition

• The need for stronger cybersecurity awareness and integration across the energy sector

• Strategic competition with China in advanced energy technologies

Key Quotes:

“We can’t [be AI dominant] if we’re not energy dominant. The two are inextricably interwoven.” — Frank Cilluffo

“The nuclear industry will never compromise on safety… because they know any accident at one facility is an accident at all facilities” — Aaron Larson

“Volt Typhoon… literally did the cyber equivalent of preparation of the battlefield, where they own that infrastructure and can turn it on or off to meet their needs.” — Frank Cilluffo

“People know [Cybersecurity] is important…They just don’t always think it’s their responsibility.” — Aaron Larson

Guest Bio:

Aaron Larson is the Executive Editor of POWER magazine, a team he joined in 2013. Aaron has a bachelor’s degree in nuclear engineering technology and a master’s degree, specializing in finance. He spent 13 years in the U.S. Navy nuclear power program, advancing to Chief Petty Officer. He has worked at commercial nuclear, biomass, and coal-fired power plants, functioning in operations, maintenance, safety, financial, and management capacities.

Transcript

1
00:00:00,000 –> 00:00:01,000
Aaron Larson [00:00:00]:
I’m really excited about what the future holds. Like deep, dry rock, geothermal. This is where they’re developing technology that they can drill deeper into the earth and actually get geothermal energy anywhere in the country. Fusion power is, I don’t think it’s just a dream anymore. This is something that I believe is going to happen in the relatively near future.

2
00:00:01,000 –> 00:00:02,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:00:25]:
Welcome to a special edition of Cyber Focus and the Power Podcast. I’m Frank Cilluffo, and…

3
00:00:02,000 –> 00:00:03,000
Aaron Larson [00:00:34]:
Hi, I’m Aaron Larson, executive editor of Power Magazine and I’m the host of the Power Podcast. So I’m excited to be here with you, Frank, and talk about everything power related and cybersecurity related.

4
00:00:03,000 –> 00:00:04,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:00:46]:
Awesome, awesome. And Aaron, maybe we’re both used to asking all the questions. We’ll go back and forth and do a little bit of a tick and tock and the like. But I thought we can start with maybe a discussion around the grid. And few issues are more significant from a cybersecurity standpoint than the electricity sector. But I think that there’s been so much change in terms of the grid to try to make it more efficient, more reliant, more resilient. But I’d be curious what your thinking is if we were to paint a picture of the state of the grid today.

5
00:00:04,000 –> 00:00:05,000
Aaron Larson [00:01:23]:
Well, it’s changed a lot. Just maybe a decade ago we were seeing most of the power that’s being put on the grid coming from centralized power stations. That being coal plants, nuclear plants, hydropower plants, gas fired plants, all these large facilities that had big rotating generators that supplied the grid. And it was fairly one way directional power flow, everything coming out from those central power stations going through large transmission lines to distribution networks and to households and businesses. Today that has changed enormously. I mean, we are seeing a lot more distributed energy resources that have come online, a lot smaller facilities that are incorporating, you know, solar power, you know, little solar farms here and there, community solar projects, wind turbines. A lot of energy storage has been added to the grid. So it’s just a completely different setup than it used to be.

6
00:00:05,000 –> 00:00:06,000
Aaron Larson [00:02:35]:
And you know, we’re seeing a lot of rooftop solar, you know, and just a big change in what is powering households today and what’s powering businesses today. So that to me is really phenomenal and it’s something that we’ve been covering with Power Magazine in our news and in a lot of the articles that we write. And that opens up a lot of cybersecurity vulnerability, I believe. So that’s your expertise. What do you see happening in that realm?

7
00:00:06,000 –> 00:00:07,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:03:09]:
You know, Aaron, let me just for the, to underscore for our viewers, listeners and the like, Power Magazine is a must read. So it’s how I get smart and stay up to date on all the new developments. But I think you raise a great point. At the end of the day, it has changed in terms of it’s much more complex than it is. It also expands the attack surface in many ways exponentially. The flip side is it also can build in a little more redundancy and resilience because it’s not just one target we’re necessarily putting a bullseye on. But I think from a national security standpoint, from an economic standpoint, from a public safety standpoint, if you don’t have power, all these other systems are somewhat irrelevant.

8
00:00:07,000 –> 00:00:08,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:04:02]:
So the significance of keeping our lights on, keeping our energy systems, making sure that they’re resilient is, is, is truly at the very top of the list. We talk about our critical infrastructure sectors. There’s no infrastructure more critical than power. So if you don’t have power, it doesn’t matter where transportation is or finance and banking, because they ain’t going to be up and running. So I think that it is at the very, very top of that list. And increasingly we’re starting to see the demands around artificial intelligence and the massive power needs if we want to be AI dominant, we can’t do that if we’re not energy dominant. The two are inextricably interwoven, hand in glove.

9
00:00:08,000 –> 00:00:09,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:04:53]:
And if you start looking at where the country wants to be technologically, if we want to lead, we really need to continue to double down, triple down, and look at all sorts of sources of energy as well, right? I mean, a lot of talk around and I’d be curious what your thinking is around small modular nuclear. You’re starting to see data centers actually buy their own facilities. What’s the latest and greatest there?

10
00:00:09,000 –> 00:00:10,000
Aaron Larson [00:05:22]:
Yeah, that’s a huge change that you mentioned. I remember even a year ago we really weren’t talking about data centers that much. We, we’d have a particular article maybe every couple of months about a data center project or something like that and the energy that they’d be using. But today we’re hearing about data centers almost daily and the amount of power that they’re going to demand and how are the utilities going to keep up with it. And like you said, the tech companies are actually going out sourcing their own power. They’re making deals with nuclear power developers to build new plants, small modular reactors like you said, and they’re also working with bringing back old units. You know, the Three Mile Island Unit One is going to be brought back into service because Microsoft needs the power. And so that’s a big development in seeing, you know, another one that’s coming back is the Palisades nuclear plant that was retired and there’s talk about Dwayne Arnold in Iowa coming and being brought back online.

11
00:00:10,000 –> 00:00:11,000
Aaron Larson [00:06:33]:
So these are really important developments and it’s great for the nuclear industry. Actually, my background is in nuclear power.

12
00:00:11,000 –> 00:00:12,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:06:41]:
Absolutely a petty officer too. Navy, right?

13
00:00:12,000 –> 00:00:13,000
Aaron Larson [00:06:45]:
I was a chief in the Navy for, I spent 13 years there.

14
00:00:13,000 –> 00:00:14,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:06:48]:
Petty officer, yeah.

15
00:00:14,000 –> 00:00:15,000
Aaron Larson [00:06:49]:
And went to, then to the Quad City Station and worked there for several years. And so nuclear is near and dear to my heart and I’m really excited to see some of these advanced reactors that are being developed. And I’ve had on my, my own podcast, the Power Podcast, several CEOs from different companies, you know, to talk about their designs. I had Clay Sell from X Energy talking about his projects that he’s got underway. And Doug Robison is from Natura Resources, they’re building a unit, a micro reactor at the Abilene Christian University in Texas, and just actually recorded an episode with COO of TerraPower, that’s Eric Williams and I’m going to be publishing that very soon, perhaps even today. And so, you know, I’m talking with these high level executives and they’re really excited and optimistic about the prospects for their designs and where they’re going. So I think there’s a lot of optimism. And you know, the Idaho National Laboratory is another place where I’ve been and visited the site and they’re working on a marvel micro reactor there, which is a really exciting development as well.

16
00:00:15,000 –> 00:00:16,000
Aaron Larson [00:08:09]:
So I think, you know, there’s a lot happening. But again, it comes back to the safety and the vulnerabilities that these sort of projects could introduce into the system.

17
00:00:16,000 –> 00:00:17,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:08:23]:
And Aaron, you know, and shoot down my narrative here, but, but traditionally it was a pretty risk adverse industry and we seem to be lagging a little bit in recent past on the nuclear side in particular. Right now it’s innovating though, right? It’s no longer, there’s this mindset that they’re risk adverse, they’re very conservative in what they’re doing. We can’t afford that today though, can we? We’ve got to go all in, don’t we?

18
00:00:17,000 –> 00:00:18,000
Aaron Larson [00:08:58]:
Well, I think when you talk about risk, there are obviously things that you need to be cognizant of safety.

19
00:00:18,000 –> 00:00:19,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:09:08]:
Security since safety standpoint. Yeah.

20
00:00:19,000 –> 00:00:20,000
Aaron Larson [00:09:10]:
The nuclear industry will never compromise on safety and that is something that is near and dear to all of their hearts because they know any accident at one facility is an accident at all facilities because that affects everyone around the world. And so they will always err on the side of safety. And they move slowly, but they are moving much more quickly today than they used to. And many of these new advanced reactors are inherently safe. They’re a smaller design that has less fuel to be concerned with. They have smaller boundary areas that they need to comply with. So that in itself kind of gives some credibility and, and it, and it helps the safety aspects. So, you know, that’s certainly a benefit and something that the industry is very aware of and, and working to maintain.

21
00:00:20,000 –> 00:00:21,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:10:13]:
So for our viewers, clearly we are seeing innovation, but security is not an afterthought. So we’re starting to bake into the design of some of our thinking both from a public safety and from a national security and economic security perspective, some of our redundancy, resiliency and the like. You know what I also find really interesting is states themselves play significant roles in all of this and some are becoming magnets for new forms of energy and obviously building out the infrastructure for all of this. Any states come to mind that are doing it right here and others that maybe can do it a little differently if they tried?

22
00:00:21,000 –> 00:00:22,000
Aaron Larson [00:11:03]:
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think as I mentioned, I talked to the TerraPower COO and they’re building a project in Kemmerer, Wyoming and he was very appreciative of the support that he gets from the state of Wyoming. They are really excited about the project. They are very energy intensive. You know, they’ve been a coal producing state, so they’re looking for ways to evolve and to take those workers who used to have jobs in the coal industry and shift them into, you know, nuclear power and wind and solar and other energy types of projects and jobs. So that’s one state that I know is doing a great job and Texas is another that I’d have to hold up as an example. You know, Governor Greg Abbott is very nuclear, pro nuclear and they have Texas Nuclear Alliance and they’re developing, you know, special projects and working to build a nuclear pipeline in the state. I know last year they did an event and former Governor Rick Perry was there as a pro nuclear person and Ernie Moniz, the former Energy Secretary spoke at the event.

23
00:00:22,000 –> 00:00:23,000
Aaron Larson [00:12:30]:
He’s also very pro nuclear. So these are states that are really taking the bull by the horns and trying to develop and basically get the jobs that are going to come into this industry. They want them in their state, they want to be the leader promoting this technology. You know, New York is another example of a really, I think, progressive energy mindset. You know, they actually just announced today that they’re planning to build another nuclear plant in New York. They didn’t announce a site, but they are certainly pro nuclear in that respect as well. So it’s, you know, exciting to see some of these. And you know, it’s not only nuclear in New York they had what is our plant of the year, the South Fork Wind Farm out, you know, offshore wind farm.

24
00:00:23,000 –> 00:00:24,000
Aaron Larson [00:13:25]:
And that was a progressive and interesting project and something that I think needs to be developed more. Offshore wind is right now still very expensive in the grand scheme of things. But as more projects get done and as you know, the pipeline gets built and you get more experience, first of a kind projects are always expensive, but when you get to that nth of a kind, that’s where you can really tap into the economics or scale and things like that. So that’s good to see and something that’s important to develop in our nation.

25
00:00:24,000 –> 00:00:25,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:14:02]:
And not to put a fine point on it, but you mentioned so many different forms of energy and I’m reminded of the old test, the A, B, C or D, all of the above. This sounds like it is clearly in all of the above, but is there one form that you think out powers the rest? No pun intended.

26
00:00:25,000 –> 00:00:26,000
Aaron Larson [00:14:25]:
I’ll tell you what, I’m really excited about what the future holds because I haven’t even mentioned some of the things that are under development that I feel are really important. Like deep dry rock geothermal. This is where they’re developing technology that they can drill deeper into the earth and actually get geothermal energy anywhere in the country or around the world. You know, they’re getting deep enough where we can install lines and bring the heat up to the surface and utilize it anywhere. And that’s really, I think, a game changer. Another thing is fusion. Fusion power is, I don’t think it’s just a dream anymore. This is something that I believe is going to happen in the relatively near future.

27
00:00:26,000 –> 00:00:27,000
Aaron Larson [00:15:12]:
I think we’re going to see some small scale projects coming online, you know, in the next decade. And as they get more feedback and lessons learned and some of these Tokamak projects, you know, we think about ITER over in France. A lot of countries involved in that and a lot of excitement around what can be done with fusion energy.

28
00:00:27,000 –> 00:00:28,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:15:35]:
Are there other countries that we should be learning, and I know we’re all learning. This is a global set of issues and you can’t isolate it from what is playing out globally. But are there some countries you think we ought to take some notes from and try to emulate?

29
00:00:28,000 –> 00:00:29,000
Aaron Larson [00:15:56]:
You know, China is so much involved in…

30
00:00:29,000 –> 00:00:30,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:16:01]:
I was afraid you were going there. Okay.

31
00:00:30,000 –> 00:00:31,000
Aaron Larson [00:16:04]:
Yeah, I mean they really are, they really are developing more wind and more nuclear and more solar than anywhere else in the world. They are just putting so much money into energy that we honestly can’t let them take the lead on all of these things that we have been so involved in over the years. You know, nuclear power used to be our bread and butter, you know, back in the early days and, and we’ve let them kind of take over, but I think we’re coming back. We’ve got a lot of innovative companies here working on advanced reactors and that I’m excited about. Other technology, you know, as I mentioned, you know, fusion is, is quite a lot of companies working on that. Some of them small, just startups, but they’re doing good things and really pushing the boundaries on what can be done in, in those fields. So, you know.

32
00:00:31,000 –> 00:00:32,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:16:59]:
And there’s a big gap between what can be done in a lab and what can be fielded. And, and I really get your point. First builds are always going to be more costly. Once it hits that scale point though, then it’s, then it’s pennies on the dollar and it makes a whole lot of sense. But on the fusion side, since you brought it up a couple times, how close do you think we are and what could that look like? Cause that, that makes my head hurt in terms of understanding a little bit.

33
00:00:32,000 –> 00:00:33,000
Aaron Larson [00:17:27]:
Well, you know, I’m not a fusion expert. I understand fission much better because I went to school for that.

34
00:00:33,000 –> 00:00:34,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:17:35]:
We’ve been there.

35
00:00:34,000 –> 00:00:35,000
Aaron Larson [00:17:36]:
But you know, what I understand is there’s different methods of doing it. You know, there’s different ways that they’re focusing. You know, the big Tokamak is, things is, what ITER is based on over in France. And you know, General Atomics in San Diego has a unit that they’re developing there as well that is really important technology that’s being utilized and I’m excited about those deals. But you know, Commonwealth Fusion is another Massachusetts based developer that’s, that’s using, I think it’s called Spark. It’s another kind of smaller Tokamak design. But then there’s others that are just aiming atoms at each other in a chamber. That seems to be really interesting technology too.

36
00:00:35,000 –> 00:00:36,000
Aaron Larson [00:18:29]:
So I think one of those could actually be operational sooner rather than later. And that could be as soon as the 2030s, early 2030s. I think that we could see energy being developed and utilized through fusion.

37
00:00:36,000 –> 00:00:37,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:18:48]:
And that sounds like a game changer.

38
00:00:37,000 –> 00:00:38,000
Aaron Larson [00:18:51]:
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s really an important and exciting thing that could open up a whole new realm of possibilities. And you know, I’ll throw another thing out, you know, as long as we’re talking about the future. I talked to some folks who think space based solar power is an option where we can actually launch rockets with, you know, panels that get mounted in space and beam the energy back to earth where it can be used. And what the benefits of that are is you get a no cloud cover, you get 24 hour a day dispatchable energy from space. And we know that they’re using solar panels in space right now to power satellites and things like that. They may utilize it to beam power to the moon, you know, so that they can power equipment up there. So it’s just a really interesting and innovative way. There are a lot of people out there that are a lot smarter than me that are doing these types of projects and really I think doing some exciting work.

39
00:00:38,000 –> 00:00:39,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:19:59]:
Oh, you’re speaking my language on space and I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but can you believe it has not been designated a critical infrastructure? Our dependency, this isn’t the next frontier. It is here and now. Whether it’s for positioning, navigation, timing, clock, signaling, the dependence on space has grown so exponential that any disruption to that would have the same impact that a significant disruption to the grid would have. And shockingly, it has not been by the United States designated a critical infrastructure yet. But that will change. I’m pretty optimistic that will change because, well, duh, if it doesn’t, we’re kind of doomed. But, but that is, that is interesting that it’s not only the here and now, it’s where it can go in the future as well.

40
00:00:39,000 –> 00:00:40,000
Aaron Larson [00:20:59]:
And one of the things that, that I found interesting about what’s making this more feasible today is that we’ve got these relaunchable rockets and all of these, you know, private companies that are developing technology that can be reused and it’s bringing the costs way down and that’s really what’s driving the ability to do it.

41
00:00:40,000 –> 00:00:41,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:21:22]:
True that. We recently had the CEO of United Launch, ULA on to talk about some of the space launch, and they really have dropped in terms of price dramatically and will continue to, to, to, to drop I think. What, what about electric vehicles? To me, I think the demand that, so we touched on AI. There, there’s much more there. But at the end of the day, the, the energy demand and need for artificial intelligence is, is going to exponentially grow. We know that it’s, it’s at about 16% data centers account for right now. I think Goldman Sachs is figuring that’s going to double within a couple of years. Not, not many years out. And then the numbers get much bigger and bigger. It’s sort of one of these pathways that go forward.

42
00:00:41,000 –> 00:00:42,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:22:17]:
But EVs are also a huge suck on energy, aren’t they?

43
00:00:42,000 –> 00:00:43,000
Aaron Larson [00:22:24]:
Yeah, you bring up a great point because, you know, the data centers get a lot of the, the pub, the publicity and everyone is worried about what they could potentially require for energy demand. But electric vehicles and the electrification of everything. We talk about manufacturing and industry, instead of using fossil fuels, they’re starting to turn to electric boilers and electrifying other services that they utilize that used to be powered by gas or coal or, you know, some other fossil fuel. So I think there’s just going to be a continual upswing in the demand that’s needed in the grid. You know, we have been stagnant for decades, honestly, and that doesn’t mean there hasn’t been growth, but that growth has been basically absorbed by behind the meter solar or by energy efficiency improvements. You know, I don’t believe anybody still has incandescent light bulbs in their, you know, lights anymore. Everybody switched to LEDs, which use 13 watts instead of 100.

44
00:00:43,000 –> 00:00:44,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:23:43]:
Except my wife, believe it or not. But that’s okay.

45
00:00:44,000 –> 00:00:45,000
Aaron Larson [00:23:47]:
Well, you know, there’s still some out there, but boy, the ability to become more efficient through lighting and other…

46
00:00:45,000 –> 00:00:46,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:23:56]:
10-4. No, you’re preaching, you’re preaching to the choir. I’ve had this discussion. You’re right. It’s the, the energy, big deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

47
00:00:46,000 –> 00:00:47,000
Aaron Larson [00:24:05]:
So from this point forward, you know, there’s really not that we can, a lot that we can save. You know, you can only get so efficient with a refrigerator or with, you know, your air conditioning unit. And as the temperatures seem to keep getting higher, they’re going to be turning their air conditioners on more and more in places that maybe didn’t used to have air conditioning may be getting it. So we’re going to see more demand from that as well.

48
00:00:47,000 –> 00:00:48,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:24:30]:
Absolutely.

49
00:00:48,000 –> 00:00:49,000
Aaron Larson [00:24:31]:
Heat pumps are another avenue. You know, you can almost go on and on and talk about all the things that are going to be electrified or continue to grow in usage, and it’s amazing to think that, yeah, we’ve got to power this stuff.

50
00:00:49,000 –> 00:00:50,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:24:46]:
And, you know, Yogi Berra once said, the future ain’t what it used to be, may he rest in peace. And the only way to predict the future, I guess, is to shape it. But when we look at what this demand, the one thing I think we can agree on, the demand is going to get greater and greater and greater. I mean, could you envision the highways of tomorrow paved in silicon, which is also going to have an energy demand? I, I kind of feel like you’re going to have cars powered along the way if they don’t have the battery life that they need. I mean, your head starts hurting thinking about all this. But that’s not necessarily so far away, is it?

51
00:00:50,000 –> 00:00:51,000
Aaron Larson [00:25:30]:
These are innovations. It’s hard to imagine where we’re going, because if you’d have taken me back 10 years and said that we’d have AI, you know, basically running our lives practically, and you could ask your phone anything and have an answer immediately, I’d have been like, wow, what a world. But what’s the next 10 years going to look like when AI is helping us get there, you know, exactly. Helping the tools and developing the technology that we need to become even better.

52
00:00:51,000 –> 00:00:52,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:26:01]:
And not to bring it back to China, but I will. China is a primary focus of a lot of our podcast discussion, but, but it’s, it’s a race we cannot afford to lose. Whether it’s around AI, quantum, and I think you’re, you’re spot on. To get there, they recognize the need to, to, to really quadruple down on, on energy. So I, I still think that we want to be at the vanguard driving all of this. Is, is that a view you share?

53
00:00:52,000 –> 00:00:53,000
Aaron Larson [00:26:37]:
Oh, absolutely. You know, I think it’s very important for our national security. We’ve got the smartest people in the world working on projects, you know, in our labs. We’ve got just incredible knowledge and skill. And I just think, you know, if we put our minds to anything, we can do it. So I’m excited about what can happen, and I think we’ve got to put the money, put the focus, have the private investment, public-private partnerships. All of these things are important to make sure that we get where we need to go with technology and the future.

54
00:00:53,000 –> 00:00:54,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:27:14]:
And you touched on something near and dear to me, the money. Policy without resources is rhetoric. So at the end of the day, it’s sometimes hard to make the research argument when budgets are constrained and tight and what have you. But if we’re not out R&Ding everyone else, we’re going to be looking through rear view mirrors, wishing we did. So, but I think it’s not all federal funding, right? It’s also industry. And you’re starting to see that.

55
00:00:54,000 –> 00:00:55,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:27:50]:
And I just want to underscore, research budgets cannot drop exponentially or we will be paying a price sooner rather than later too. Since these technology spikes seem to be going really fast.

56
00:00:55,000 –> 00:00:56,000
Aaron Larson [00:28:04]:
I agree with you.

57
00:00:56,000 –> 00:00:57,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:28:06]:
And on the threat side, I spend most of my time worrying about China, Russia, Iran, North Korea. Obviously Iran is in the news right now. And you talked about geothermal. I’m thinking about bunker buster bombs that might be able to get to some of that in the future. But, but, but all things said and done, I don’t think, the security implications are paramount, right?

58
00:00:57,000 –> 00:00:58,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:28:35]:
And, and we’ve had many utility leaders come in and they’ll say that’s literally one of their top five priorities that they are struggling with every day. But from a magazine’s perspective, where you get to hear from all these cool people designing new things, how often is security brought up? Is it a footnote or is it a first chapter set of issues or somewhere in between, chapter five?

59
00:00:58,000 –> 00:00:59,000
Aaron Larson [00:29:03]:
You know, I’ll be completely honest with you. I don’t get enough people worried about cybersecurity reading our publication. I put out the information.

60
00:00:59,000 –> 00:01:00,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:29:14]:
Well, your viewers here will be coming to you, making that a priority I hope.

61
00:01:00,000 –> 00:01:01,000
Aaron Larson [00:29:17]:
I hope so, because, you know, I believe it’s super important and cybersecurity should be top of mind for everyone throughout the power industry because I worry about, you know, some of these potential, you know, hacks could be already embedded in our system. And we’ve got to maintain our security practices, best practices, and really, you know, beat that system. We can’t let them take control of our components. It’s just vital. And what I tend to sense is that people realize it’s important. They understand that we have rules and we need to maintain security, but they think it’s, belongs to somebody else.

62
00:01:01,000 –> 00:01:02,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:30:05]:
Yep, someone else’s problem. The IT guy.

63
00:01:02,000 –> 00:01:03,000
Aaron Larson [00:30:09]:
We’ve got people that worry about that stuff. I don’t need to, but in reality, it’s all of us. Anybody that’s working in a plant, anybody that’s, you know, working with technology, we all have to be cognizant of how do we maintain safety, how do we secure our passwords, how do we not put a USB into something that might already be infected or vice versa. So I think the more we can spread the word and keep people cognizant of how important it is and like I said, I think they know it’s important. They just don’t always think it’s their responsibility. And that’s where I think we need to be more proactive in making sure people realize that.

64
00:01:03,000 –> 00:01:04,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:30:50]:
Aaron, I’m really glad you brought that up because it’s not just the cybersecurity, it’s everyone needs to be cyber aware, cyber informed when they’re in the labs. It’s almost too late by the time it’s fielded anyway. So you always want to try to bake it into the design. And part of that is not, it’s not only technical, it’s having thinking through, thinking through what the potential implications could be. And not to put too fine a point on it, but when you were talking about owning some of our infrastructure, Volt Typhoon, which was a Chinese cyber actor, this is all public now, they literally did the cyber equivalent of preparation of the battlefield, where they own that infrastructure and can turn it on or off to meet their needs when they want to meet those particular needs. So that’s a lot, a lot different than hacking in. They’re in the system. So these are issues that not to, to foot stomp it too strongly, but we have to invest in it. It can’t be an afterthought.

65
00:01:04,000 –> 00:01:05,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:31:59]:
It has to be something that everyone thinks through. And, and the reality is, is don’t think it’s someone else’s problem. A, it’s all of our problems and B, don’t think that it can be looked at after the balloon goes up. You need to be thinking all of this well in advance. And whatever we can do to help on that side, I want to make sure our listeners, viewers sort of meet your listeners viewers and, and make the whole greater than the sum of its parts. Hey, Aaron. I feel like I dominated too much of the discussion. Anything to, I’ve never had an unspoken thought.

66
00:01:05,000 –> 00:01:06,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:32:39]:
So if you’ve got any questions, please let me know. If not, I really enjoyed this discussion. I’m learning a whole lot and this was a whole lot of fun. But let me turn it to you.

67
00:01:06,000 –> 00:01:07,000
Aaron Larson [00:32:53]:
Yeah, I actually felt the same way. I felt like I dominated it. So I think that way we must have done alright.

68
00:01:07,000 –> 00:01:08,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:33:00]:
Boom, boom. Any questions I should have asked that I didn’t?

69
00:01:08,000 –> 00:01:09,000
Aaron Larson [00:33:02]:
Not from me. I feel we covered a lot of stuff and we could probably get back on for another half hour or more and go over even more. But I’m happy with what we covered. So thanks, Frank.

70
00:01:09,000 –> 00:01:10,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:33:14]:
Well, I appreciate the time, I appreciate the partnership and hope this is the first of many in the future. So thank you, Aaron.

71
00:01:10,000 –> 00:01:11,000
Aaron Larson [00:33:22]:
And one last thing I want to say is thank you, too, for contributing. I actually published an article that you wrote along with your counterpart, Kyle. I think it’s Kyle.

72
00:01:11,000 –> 00:01:12,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:33:33]:
Kyle Klein. Yep. Yep. Our head of policy.

73
00:01:12,000 –> 00:01:13,000
Aaron Larson [00:33:35]:
We had that in a commentary piece in our May issue, I want to say. So thank you for contributing that and I hope people will come and read it on our Power Mag website.

74
00:01:13,000 –> 00:01:14,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:33:46]:
Likewise. Thank you, Aaron, and Godspeed.

75
00:01:14,000 –> 00:01:15,000
Aaron Larson [00:33:49]:
All right, thanks.

76
00:01:15,000 –> 00:01:16,000
Frank Cilluffo [00:33:52]:
Thank you for joining us for this episode of Cyber Focus. If you liked what you heard, please consider subscribing. Your ratings and reviews help us reach more listeners. Drop us a line if you have any ideas in terms of topics, themes or individuals you’d like for us to host. Until next time, stay safe, stay informed, and stay curious.